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CSM, The Silent Majority Needs A Voice

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Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.20 18:46:00 - [1] Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran Thankyou for all the responces so far, we seem to have drifted a little off target but on the whole the discussion has been revealing. With the possible exception of Tarmanic all of the opposition to hisec dwellers getting a say in their game has come from big alliance members. And Kagura Nikon thank you so much for your post, you have provided a brilliant insight into the thought process of the type of person we really dont need. I dont deny that the most blood thirsty pirate can be civilised when not plugged into his ship, but what can the player who controls that pirate know about the problems ascociated with the day to day running of a small scale mine to manufacture corp? Thing is, people who live in 0.0 and low-sec and are well versed in the combat portion of the game and in surviving in those areas, are more often than also very knowledgable in other areas in the game like industry and markets. Many, many big 0.0 alliance members run industrial operations of various sorts out in 0.0 and also in empire space with alts. For example, this is my industrial alt. People who live exclusivein high-sec on the other hand may know their own tiny field reasonably well (although sometimes not even that, because they're usually very casual players), but they mostly know absolutely nothing about anything else in the game.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.20 22:09:00 - [2] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 20/03/2008 22:09:30 Originally by: Siresa Talesi Originally by: Zorlag "The Silent Majority" is a bunch of morons throwing their lives away in empire mining ice and running repetitive missions. They'll gobble up any tedious task or game mechanic we throw at them without really understanding it or making any effort to, so why should they even have a voice? I think these statements illustrate perfectly the type of attitude people are concerned about. Thank you for helping prove a point. Well, Zorlag is 100% right. The type of players that stay in high-sec and never venture outside generally have a very poor understanding of the game and how it works even in their own narrow field, let alone the other parts of the game which they never get involved in at all. On the other hand, many of us that live in 0.0 tend to be involved in many different aspects of the game.
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.03.20 22:31:00 - [3] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Reem Fairchild Well, Zorlag is 100% right. The stereotype of players that stay in high-sec and never venture outside generally have a very poor understanding of the game and how it works even in their own narrow field, let alone the other parts of the game which they never get involved in at all. On the other hand, many of us that live in 0.0 tend to be involved in many different aspects of the game. Fixed. I did say "generally". I know there are many exceptions.
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.03.20 23:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Reem Fairchild I did say "generally". I know there are many exceptions. Fair enough. However, I don't think that it's right to look down on any players because they do not participate in activity X or often perform activity Y or are not especially familiar with game mechanic Z. They are players nonetheless and should have their interests represented equally in the council. Just because someone runs missions constantly does not mean that he has no say in how EVE can change for the better. If it were up to me, this is how I would divide the council members off the top of my head: Well, se your list kind of illustrates my original point. A lot of people (but not all, of course) from these groups: Quote: 1 Representative from a major alliance participating in an offensive war 1 Representative from a major alliance participating in a defensive war 1 Representative from an alliance that operates but holds no territory in 0.0 Will often be representative of these 3 groups as well, to some extent: Quote: 1 Representative for industrialists 1 Representative for mission runners 1 Representative for miners But the opposite is not really true. You can be a high-sec miner, manufacturer, trader, ect. ... and never do anything else, never leave high-sec, never bother with the rest of the game and players, and never get involved in what is really the heart of the game, that is combat (except in the few rare cases that it gets violently imposed on them, like with what Tri and Goons have been doing lately). But there is no way you can run any kind of serious activity in 0.0 without industry.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.20 23:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Reem Fairchild You can be a high-sec miner, manufacturer, trader, ect. ... and never do anything else, never leave high-sec, never bother with the rest of the game and players, and never get involved in what is really the heart of the game So in your opinion, that makes them unworthy of fair representation? No, in my opinion that makes them not as qualified to speak on game balance issues. When people have little experience with something, they don't even know how little they know about it to begin with.
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.03.21 00:21:00 - [6] Personally, if Akita runs he has my vote.
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.03.21 09:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 21/03/2008 08:38:08 Tbh it'd be really funny if the people who live in highsec actually manage to get a candidate elected... only to find out the character they elected was an alt of some 0.0 guy. Someone needs to do this!!!
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.03.21 10:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Gamesguy Except the 0.0 guy is far more likely to have knowledge about industry and trading The argument isn't about knowledge, it's about interests. I don't care if you have knowledge of my particular field, if you don't also share interests in that field. My particular interest is the fusion of profession and money-making. For example how can you call yourself a "PvP'er" by profession, if you make money through NPC's, and that PvP for you is only isk loss? Why 0.0 is meaningless for me : most of the players that live there are not professional PvPers, that is, their income does not derive from PvP. The highsec trader is making his money off OTHER PLAYERS, not off NPC's, which makes him a professional PvP player. The ones in 0.0 who rat for 3 hours to buy a ship, to go and PvP on Saturday, are professional PvE players. This high-sec dwelling industrial/trading alt that I'm posting with here begs to differ with you.
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.03.21 10:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: Cipher7 The highsec trader is making his money off OTHER PLAYERS, not off NPC's, which makes him a professional PvP player. How many hi-sec traders do you think are 0.0 alts? If they're making their money in highsec, they'd be in 0.0 for what purpose? To spend it? Pretty much.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.21 15:58:00 - [10] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 21/03/2008 15:58:44 Originally by: Cipher7 The entire Eve playerbase is going to be represented by people who hack each others teamspeak and buy characters to spy on each other. Gee I wonder why anybody thinks they'd be dishonest and self-serving. The funny thing is you have no problem saying the above but you'd probably have a tantrum if anyone criticizes the way you play Eve. Why would you make judgements about people's real life morality and character based on how they play a game?

Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.21 16:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Cipher7 Originally by: Reem Fairchild Why would you make judgements about people's real life morality and character based on how they use out-of-game mechanics to gain in-game advantage? fixed Spying is part of the game.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.21 17:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Lurana Jade Edited by: Lurana Jade on 21/03/2008 16:48:10 So is macroing and nano-hooring, n00b baiting, excessive smacking, Dev misconduct, and meta-gaming to the extreme to just mention a few. So? Troll much? Quote: A lot of people (amazingly!) arent jackasses just because they can be and don't like to be around people like that. Amazingly, people playing a game that is intended and designed to be primarily about warfare, piracy and ruthless compettion, like to engage in gasp in-game warfare and destruction and all the things that go with that, like espionage. Well, I am indeed shocked. My e-honor backbone has been shaken to the core.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.22 04:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Siresa Talesi Originally by: Reem Fairchild Amazingly, people playing a game that is intended and designed to be primarily about warfare, piracy and ruthless compettion, like to engage in gasp in-game warfare and destruction and all the things that go with that, like espionage. I don't think that most people complaining about the CSM have a problem with people playing the game that way, we just have a problem with people who play that way claiming to be able to represent all players' views without bias. Why?
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.22 04:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Inanna Zuni and less than 10% of pilots live in 0.0 space. A lot more than that, and a very large chunk of those that don't are our alts.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.22 20:10:00 - [15] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 22/03/2008 20:10:44 Originally by: Amarria Black Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: Siresa Talesi I don't think that most people complaining about the CSM have a problem with people playing the game that way, we just have a problem with people who play that way claiming to be able to represent all players' views without bias. Just think of it as one more level of playing the game. And this is why the 0.0 megalliances can't hold all the positions. Because this is genuinely how they think of the situation: by tying up the council, they further their in-game agenda and "win". Anyone who thinks about direct player input and oversight in terms of "winning" and "losing" has no business whatsoever involving themselves in this process. What we as a whole need are player advocates who care about all issues, from hi-sec suicide ganking to sovereignty mechanics to a bad corp interface to ship role redundancy. Everything. Not just pimping the changes which benefit their corner of reality and saying hang the rest. If you're playing a game you will be playing to win. Why else would you play? However, being on that council is not playing the game. And if you make asumptions about people's character out of the game based on them playing the game in one of the many ways it's intended to be played (the main way it's intended to be played, I might add), then... well, that's pretty immature of you. I mean by that logic, when I play RTW and have the population in most cities I conquer massacred, it must mean I'm actually a mass murderer in real life. Right?
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.26 17:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Siresa Talesi Think about it for a moment. Selfish in-game behavior frequently translates into the same type of attitudes in RL. No, it's not always the case, but it is often enough to be a problem. I would say that it is never the case. You don't understand the main point of playing games. I do a LOT of tings in games that I would never do in real life. In fact, if what you're saying is true, and our bahavior in computer is directly related to our personality in real life we'd be in serious trouble. I mean, something like 90% (at least) of people who play computer games must be mass murderers in real life then. This is the main way that Eve is intended to be played, by design. This is what it is meant to be like. How can you say that playing this game normally makes someone a bad person?
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.27 07:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Actions that affect NPCs only do not apply. It matters how you interact with other players. Why? Those people are playing the game with me. They're part of the game world. It's not a very pleasant world. It's not meant to be. But it's a game. MMORPG. Get it? Why would anything I, or anyone else, do within the game, against NPCs or PCs, be seen as indicative of our personality in real life or be taken personally by anyone? It's a game. The only thing that could possibly be wrong is if you actually broke the rules of the game itself and outright cheated. I don't understand.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.28 23:44:00 - [18] Originally by: Siresa Talesi And yet your statments above already reveal your bias towards a specific type of gameplay to the extent of your discounting the validity of others' playstyle. I don't care how others play the game. I definitely don't look down on people who do manufacturing and trading or whatever. I mean, I'd have to look down on myself as well then, considering most of my in-game income comes from this industrial/trading alt that I'm posting with here. The only thing I dislike about other's play style is in their attitude towards the game, not in what field they are in. People who treat the game like a space FPS and people who want to just run around doing whatever without any risk or challenge both annoy me in equal measure. Quote: The way you play the game most definetely affects/demonstrates your point of view, You don't even know how I personally play the game. Quote: and if others have a differing view, why should they trust someone like you to be a fair representative of their interests? I'm not, personally, running for any position. I just reacted against the notion that someone from an 0.0 corp/alliance would be inherently immoral because of the way they play the game and couldn't be counted on to not abuse their position for in-game benefit. Frankly, saying things like that is just stupid.

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